The Art of a Movie Protest

dear legofish, (love your site name by the way, though i have absolutely no idea what it means :)
i just want to thank you for the great effort, creativity and commitment you have put into giving a voice to iranians all over the world and giving them a way to be heard in these troubled times. you made a strong, civil statement for the ever-persian gulf, and you're doing it again. i have placed a link to project 300 in my weblog and asked my friends to do the same. thank you, pendar jan, and may God (or the Force) be with you.

Well, you have hit the big time - I found your page via BBC news.

Unfortunately, for a non-Persian, the idea of a protest against a (film) comic book's historical inaccuracies is hilarious. And yet another example of an ethnic/cultural group's hyper-sensitivity.

The positive side of your effort is the attempt to present Persian art and culture to the masses. I have a dear Iranian friend who has exposed me to the marvelous art and music of Iran - wonderful stuff.

But, those of you all worked up about 300, take a Valium, a comic book is a comic book. Nobody should expect to learn History or Truth from a movie, Hollywood or otherwise.

Oh, and by the way, the Spartans achieved their goal at Thermopylae, and became the stuff of legend.

Jaan

to Jaan,
unfortunately for us, the fact of the matter is that the majority of movie-goers do take this film seriously, and although "nobody should expect to learn history from a movie", the truth is that most people do, and believe that they are being presented with a history lesson. you are probably one of very few who do not. perhaps this film would not have mattered as much if Iran and the US were on good political terms or if Iran was not under such heavy attacks from all over the world (and facing sanctions as well). it is not a matter of hyper-sensitivity, but more of the fact that our image as a nation is currently bad enough as it is, what with the nuclear program and what-not; believe you me, we don't need any more negative publicity. to make such a film that depicts us in rags and looking like monsters, at such a sensitive juncture in time, is exploitative and irresponsible, to say the least. i assume you are not iranian, what if it had been your country and at this particular point in time? would you laugh it off as easily? even if it is a comic book, what reason is there really to distort the facts? the Spartan victory is legendary in itself, no need to twist history and show them triumphing over a bunch of incompetent half-orcs.

Hey. "Persian"

You're a Canadian. Not a Persian. 300 is FICTION. Based on a COMIC BOOK. You, like all arab jackasses, are telling people what to think and with your "google-bomb" are engaging in terrorism ( yes, just like the rest of your arab friends )
Terriorism against art, just like the Mohammed cartoons. Aw poor babies don't lke what others have to say about his terrorist religion, so he and his friends go around blowing up free-thinking people.

We are watching you my friend. Careful who you direct your threats at.

OOPS!

Well, I see we have a Jackass who joined the discussion.
You evidently are unaware of some basic facts: Iranians are NOT Arabs, and internet protests don't kill anyone. Calling people that don't agree with you "terrorists" is nothing more than a cheap shot. If you have a reasoned point to make, make it.

Rima, I think you have hinted at the real issue: Iran's image problem is not stupid comic book. It is the nutbar President, who belongs to an apocalyptic religious cult, extreme by Iranian standards. Iran is defamed every time this guy opens his mouth. Iran is defamed every time the regime locks up or murders its opponents (Canadians remember Zara Kazemi). The image of Iranians is tarnished by the regime's treatment of women and minorities. Post revolution, the world was shocked by images of barbaric public hangings and stonings.

I know that there is a large element in Iranian society that yearns for freedom and democracy. If you want to improve Iran's image, and that of Iranians worldwide, get the word out that you don't support the mullahs and the crazy president, that you want an open secular society, that you support women's rights, etc. etc.

Throughout the Middle East, and for a long time, the people's worst PR enemies have been themselves: what does the West see in the news? Fanatics with guns and bombs. Fanatics sawing off people's heads on camera. Suicide bombers blowing up teenagers in a pizza parlor. Crowds cheering 9/11. Where are the reasoned, passionate voices? Apart from Edward Said and Hana Ashrawi, nowhere to be seen.

I am sorry, but the rush to take offense at trivial things like 300 only hurts your cause. Like the fellow above shows, this is too reminiscent of the Danish cartoons, etc.

First of all, I'd like to express my congratulations for the effort you've made, here. In the United States, one of our basic philosophical principles is the right to free speech. Frank Miller exercised that right, in his book "300," as did the movie-makers.

Your response exercises that right, as well. Your site embodies the concept that the only proper answer to disagreeable speech is *more* speech -- not censorship or, even worse, violence. The fact that you have engaged in "more speech" is worthy of respect.

In the United States, this is how we do things. Our "marketplace of ideas" is open to everyone, no matter how odd or sensationalistic. We set limits only on speech that comes from harm directly caused to another (i.e., child pornography), or which has the risk of causing *immediate* harm to the public (i.e., incitement to riot).

That results in a rather chaotic bazaar of ideas that constantly presents images, words or concepts that offend *someone*. Clearly, Miller's "300" touched that hot-button for you. At some other time, some other set of ideas will do the same for me. It's certainly happened before.

Most U.S. citizens understand that our near-absolute protection for the right to speak, write or broadcast freely, does not exist to protect the tender sensibilities of the viewers, listeners or readers. It exists to present the ideas for examination and critique. We absolutely oppose the concept of limiting speech just because someone else considers it "irresponsible."

We don't gag those who say things we don't like; we respond to them, which is what you've done, here. And, I say, "Well done indeed, sir!"

Now then, I do think that perhaps you underestimate the education of the American public -- or at least our level of cynicism toward what the media presents. Most U.S. citizens take everything presented to them, in any media, with a fair dose of salt. That's one of the effects of constant exposure to the marketplace of ideas, which frequently resembles a "bazaar of the bizarre." Very few Americans will consider Frank Miller's version of the Battle of Thermopylae as accurate, much less definitive.

For most of us, "It's just a movie." It's one of many movies we'll see and, in the United States, we know that the vast majority of movies exist to entertain, not to instruct. If we want to find out what really happened at Thermopylae, we'll go to one of our numerous (and absolutely uncensored) libraries and book stores, or Web sites devoted to history.

Moreover, the conflict between Greece and Persia is taught in high school. As with most subjects taught to young people, history gets forgotten until most of us have a reason to recall it, or something triggers our interest. If "300" has any lasting impact (which is doubtful), it will be because it triggered that interest in finding out more.

Therefore, I will simply say that I think your assumption of our ignorance is, at best, inaccurate. At worst, it's rather patronizing, and thus some may find it insulting. Most of us will not remember the names, "Thermopylae", "Xerxes", or "Leonidas" off the tops of our heads. However, we're not utterly clueless, and those of us who care about history can easily find out more with just a few clicks of the mouse. We can also ask our history teachers, most of whom will use the movie to trigger a discussion of actual events, anyway. Or, we can go buy any one of a dozen history books about it -- including translations of Herodotus.

As for those who don't care about history, the movie won't affect them much. They'll see "300" as nothing more than a few hours of entertainment.

I'll end by saying that I encourage you to continue your efforts with this project. However, I'd also advise you to remember that most Americans will have a proper perspective of this movie, and you should, too.

Have a good one.

On a more positive note, I'd like to wish Iranians everywhere a Happy New Year!

Jaan

I agree with most of what Thomas said. I have one major concern about the Project 300 site, that is the picture "Frank Miller a historcal liar!!" by Afshin Sabouki. It seems a little counter intuative, at least to me, to be promoting art by bashing someone else's art. As stated on the Project 300 homepage, the project was "driven by an admiration for arts." I get the sense their is very little admiration for the art of Frank Miller. And if it is content which you find most offensive, specifically inaccurate historical content, then the project should strive for accuarcy. Yousefi is quoted in the E! article as saying, "There are so many talented artists, of Persian descent or otherwise, who have created art that shows a more fair and accurate picture of Persia and its culture." Many of the images on the Project site have quite a flair of fantasy and glorification.

The point is, if your motives are as have been stated, then I think you may be failing slightly in the execution of your motives. But if the product as is was the intention, then I would ask that you not attempt to present Project 300 as something it is not. I am not against your protest (accept for the practice of google bombing), just be fair and accurate about it.

Thomas, what you say is quite encouraging; I truly hope that you are right and that the barrier between West and East is not an insurmountable one.
My perception as an Iranian (judging by the way a lot of Westerners react when they find out one is Iranian) was that the American public takes what is presented in the media as the reality of what Iran and Iranians are like. I do not say this with any intention to offend, but to tell you the truth, the reaction is either wary, or one of complete unknowledge (not to use the word ignorance). Many people don't even know where Iran is. And I do not mean only Americans or Westerners, but perhaps a considerable percentage of the world. I draw your attention to the above comment by our "American" friend.

Also, in no way have I implied that free speech must be "limited". If 300 is Frank Miller's exercise of freedom of expression, then my calling it irresponsible and exploitative is mine. I already know that this chaotic "bazaar of the bizarre" is much more preferable to our government's alternative, namely, censorship. But to be honest, even if Iran had not been in the mess it is now, I still would have protested this film. A lot of my countrymen (myself included) are truly fed up with being confused with Arabs. No offence to Arab people, but it is really irritating to be mistaken for something that we're not and having to say time and again, Hello? We're IRANian, not Arabs. We speak Farsi, not Arabic. We are ethnically Persian, not black, white, or yellow.

Jaan, a few years ago, movies starring Claire Danes were banned in the Philippines because she made disparaging remarks about their capital, and not so much as a ripple stirred and nobody found it hilarious, because hardly anyone noticed. Truth is, Iran-bashing is all the rage nowadays.

I disagree that this is reminiscent of the Danish cartoons. There have been no riots or street protests, or any form of violence. Any protests have been made in the most civil way possible. Pendar's project is, in this instance, a tool for dialogue and discussion. In a country such as Iran, the reasoned, passionate voices are suppressed, therefore the 300 project, and our own websites or blogs, are the only tools that we have, so we might as well use them to the best of our ability. That said, I would truly be very glad to know about what you think we could do to help our cause.

Anyhow, Thomas, Jaan, you have a good one too. To Pendar and my Iranian friends, khaste nabashid. And to all, Happy Nowrooz. At the start of spring, here’s hoping for more rational voices, on all sides.

Rima,
With regard to your question of what can be done to help your cause, I think that this thread is a great start. Personally I think that it is vital to get the word out that the Iranian regime does not speak for all Iranians (maybe obvious to some, but not to all, see poster above). There are many voices to be heard from the Iranian communities around the world.

By all means, showcase Iranian art, music, poetry, architecture, etc. The world needs to know that Iran has a long history of high culture, and the current situation is an aberration. I also suggest that the world needs to find out that there is no such thing as the "Muslim world": there are diverse cultures lumped together in this concept, including completely secular people, very "Western" people, etc.

Expat Iranians could always put on non-political art shows, concerts, open houses, etc. In Toronto, the Iranian community gets pretty good press, as refugees, as entrepreneurs, as part of the multicultural mosaic. Demonstrations FOR rights, democracy, responsible government in Iran (as opposed to demonstrations *against* minor transgressions), all these would go a long way to creating a positive image, and gaining support for democracy and secular government in Iran.

The best way to gain a positive image is through positive action, IMHO.

Rational voices - good. Free and honest discussion, good.

Being of part German heritage, I've grown a thick skin at Hollywood's portrayal of the evil guys with German accents, relentlessly recycling the Nazi boogeyman 60 years after the fact, etc. Lost cause, I don't lose sleep over it. But I do know how you feel. There was a positive Iranian character on TV, though: ever watch JAG? The sympathetic female lead character made frequent mention of being half Iranian, spoke Farsi on screen often, and was played by a half-Iranian actress - Catherine Bell.

BTW, I'd be interested in other Iranian websites and blogs promoting positive messages and discussions about Iran and Iranian culture.

Jaan

You people will NEVER understand. You let your history, and the "arts" of your cultures define you, instead of the things you DO.

Try to accept, for just one millisecond, that the producers of 300, WERE NOT TALKING TO YOU. You...are not the bad guy portrayed in the movie. Yet, because this is a "persian" army, you think it's an insult against you. or your "people"

Islamophobia? Iranophobia? Call it whatever buzzword you want. But the simple fact is you people can't leave well enough alone. You LOOK for conflict. You have NO IDEA how to exercise freedom of choice, because you don't know what true freedom is. You just can't IGNORE things you don't like. You have to confront them. FORCE them to think your way. Just like you force your women behind veils and claim it's "tradition".

Don't like the movie? Don't watch it. Don't go out of your way to destroy the livelihood of the people who made it. You just make yourselves look like the marauding fascists you think you're partrayed as.

And by the way. I Do appreciate Iranian culture. I listend to casey kasem for 20 years. *ppplt!*

Oh. And to our "German" friend. You can grow a skin as thick as the hair on Robin Williams back. But no one. I mean NO ONE, will ever forget what Germany did in World War two. Not as long as history is recorded. That is, until the islamic world takes over and burns all the history books.

Well American, you show your nature.

Boycotts and protests are cool. I seem to remember a tea boycott a while back in your history.....

I agree that trying to shut down someone else's art/writing/opinion is wrong. And these folks are in danger of being *seen* as trying to do that with the Google bomb, etc., even if that was not their intent.

But if you actually read what is being posted here, these are not crazed fanatics or fundamentalists - they are (it seems) people living in the west, who probably are as fond of the regime of mullahs as you are. Just because they are a bit thin skinned doesn't mean they should be lumped in with islamofascists. Geez.

And my point was not that German crimes of WWII be forgotten - the must *not* be. They are an object lesson of where intolerance can lead. When you started accusing entire peoples of evil-doing, doesn't it remind you of what the brown shirts were saying? Listen to yourself, will you? My point is that Germans are stereotyped unfairly all too often, nothing to do with WW2. Likewise, it is open season on everyone from the Middle East, except for our friends, the Israelis.

Stop generalizing and stereotyping. Make your point in a civil way. Please.

Feh. Gemeralizing? Stereotyping? Look in the mirror.

I've had to watch my flag be burned by screaming iriate iranians for 30 YEARS. I've seen images of the statue of libery defaced and people cheering inthe streets on 9/11. I've seen filmmakers murdered, and authors hunted all for doing nothing more than expressing their god-given right to free speech.

You whine and moan about what's sacred to you people. Well that flag is sacred to most Americans. Your "people" wouldn't be burning our flag is they themselves weren't "generalizing" or "stereotyping" Now all we've done is make a movie based on a FANTASY COMIC BOOK, and what happens? You people go bonkers, like you always do.

And for no reason at all. The last time I checked, the United States has never invaded Iran or done anything to cause such hatred. Oh. But you guys have. You took american diplomats hostage and called it "a revolution" You've never even aplogized for it. Your "leaders" (ahem*clerics!* )and your "president" calls for the destruction if Israel on a daily basis.

Maybe your "best and brightest" ought to grow some balls and stand up to the islamo-nazis and then you wouldn't have to worry about someone "stereotyping" your "people".

Oh, and don't you even DARE to compare the American Revolution to your petty boycott of a film based on a comic book.

OK, so you are tired of anti-American sentiment. It *can* get pretty silly.

Let's get something clear - *no one* here is defending terrorism or Islamofascism - but you keep claiming that. Personally, I am a vocal critic of terror in the name of Islam, as well as the many other sins committed in the name of Islam - religious intolerance (anti-semitism), repression of women, anti-democratic thought, the culture of death and suicide, etc. etc. I would like to see purely secular, democratic governments in the Middle East - but there are none. None, not even America's ally, which is a crypto-religious state.

Here is a little history lesson. The US, courtesy of the CIA, engineered the overthrow of the democratically elected government of Iran back in the 50s, leading to the reinstatement of the Shah's dictatorship - not so pretty. So much for promoting democracy.

Also, when Rummy's pal Saddam decided to invade Iran and claim chunks of it, the US, as well as several European countries, helped out, providing intelligence, and material support, in a war that ultimately claimed upwards of a million Iranian lives. No, the US didn't invade, but you wonder why the US has a PR problem?

Sadly, the US has a long history of supporting dictators and thugs, hardly an endearing quality. Hey, but they were *your* bastards, so that was OK.

Where exactly is the US promoting democracy? China (nope, too many bucks at stake). Russia? (not a chance). Iraq? What a clusterf**K. Afghanistan? Started to, but then got distracted like a 5 year old with ADHD.

Please don't wrap yourself in the flag, play the wounded party, and then spew hate. You do not know history, or understand the values you claim to defend.

Why not read up a little about the history of Iran and the Middle East, and how the Western powers have screwed them repeatedly over the centuries. Nothing *justifies* terrorism, but I can sure understand why nobody loves 'ya. Your posts are a perfect example of the ignorance and bullying that alienate the rest of the world.

By the way, I am not from the Middle East, was born and raised in Canada of Nordic background, and generally a right wing conservative. But ignorance gets my back up.

Legofish,

My apologies - I did not intend to hijack your effort with this pi**ing contest. Just tried to engage in some civil discussion about tactics.

Sorry.

Jaan

You presume too much, to think I don't know my history. It smacks of arrogance on your part.

Rumsfeld was a tool of several presidential administrations. But you know why we chose to side with Iraq instead of Iran? Lesser of two evil buddy. At the time, it was the FAR LESSER of two evils.

Oh, and yeah. I seem to recall the United States providing money and arms to a certan group of Ahghan rebels, who, after they became free from soviet forces, turned right around and transformed their country into a terrorist haven, and used it to launch terrorist attacks on the rest of the civilized world. That's gratitude for you.

At least the American revolution was about real freedom. And we also fought a civil war to abolish slavery and preserve our union. I think if any arab or "muslim" state ever had the opportunity to experience real freedom, they wouldn't take it. Because they're all about tradition, even if that tradition is backwards and primitive, and deeply mired in religious doctrine and superstition ( 98 virgins anyone? Can't eat ham? Using CHILDREN to set off chlorine bombs to kill fellow arabs when they claim to be fighting the "imperialist american invaders"?? )

keep arguing buddy. I'll be here to counter any argument you make.

Amercian, Kasey Casem is not Iranian. He is Lebanese. Try Maz Jobrani or Sascha Cohen.
And as to your question about why America is not popular in Iran, “for no reason at all”? Hardly. There is no anti-American sentiment so far as it concerns the American people, but here are a few pointers:
In 1953 the US administration under Eisenhower toppled one of the most popular and progressive presidents Iran has ever had, namely Mohammad Mossadeq, in support of the Shah’s dictatorship, and the US supported the Shah’s regime throughout. In the Iran-Iraq war, as Jaan pointed out, the US government (was it ‘they’ or ‘you’?) supported Saddam Hussein and supplied him with arms for the 8 years that the war lasted, although Saddam was the clear aggressor. It cost two-hundred to three-hundred thousand lives each on both sides.

We are all trying to build bridges here and keep the gap from widening. You’re the only one going on the offensive, unprovoked. I, we, the majority in Iran, do not support flag-burning, death-to-America-chanting, suppression, or murdering dissidents in any way. The point I am making is that Iranians are held hostage to the minority crack-pot zealots (i.e., the government). The frequent press they get prolongs that. We just want to be left alone to live our lives. Did you see the candle-lit vigil that was held in Tehran, in honour of the 9/11 victims? Of course not, because the media doesn’t show you that.

The army shown here is “Persian”, but they’re not insulting us, you say. Who then, I wonder? Probably the Afghans. And believe it or not, the arts of one’s culture, ARE part of what a people do, and part of what defines them.
When did anyone ever say that 300 or stuff like it must be kept from being made or published and the livelihoods of those who made it “destroyed”? Here’s the deal: this film shows Iranians looking like Muslims probably a thousand years before Islam even came into being, it depicts them looking like Arabs and grossly distorts historical facts. (That is not my main objection to it, though) Iranians find it offensive. What they are doing is *saying* so, we have launched an art project and discussion forums. Is that the new definition of fascism? You are so quick to point fingers and adhere to the stereotype. And if the Iranian president puts his foot in his mouth every time he speaks, it is ruddy well not our fault. Learn to distinguish between a government and the people under it. Bush calls Iran part of the axis of evil and frequently brandishes the military attack threat, I hear. Is that what most Americans want? It’s a sad world, if it is.

Please nobody tell me that there is no political agenda behind 300. Now? Just when the US is pushing with all its might for sanctions against Iran? Which will, by the way, only affect ordinary Iranian civilians while the politicos play their games behind closed doors. THAT is what I am protesting. That makes me thin-skinned or a conspiracy-theorist? Fine by me.

And you are saying that your anger is righteous, your sacraments are sacred, but ours are not. To each his own, because we do dare. Your flag is sacred to you; believe me, Xerxes, Cyrus, his charter of human rights and the legacy he left behind, ARE sacred to us. However, as I said, that is not the main problem, but the dirty politics and racism of this film. Anyhow, enough said. I did not come here to start a fight, but to make a point and have my voice heard. Have you ever heard of Akbar Ganji, Ahmad Batebi, or Shirin Ebadi? You might not know about it, but “our best and brightest” are standing up; day in, day out. It just doesn’t change over-night.

Rima,

I think it is pointless to try and debate "American" - he doesn't seem to understand anything anyone is saying here, and just continues to slander everyone in the Middle East.

He's not listening when he is told that there are many voices in Iran. He ignores the reasons cited for the poor image of the US in Iran. He says that Iran was the greater of two evils (in what way?) and therefore the US was correct in supporting the aggression by Saddam, and his development and use of *WMD*.

He lacks the imagination to see that the US used Afghans and "mujahedeen" to fight their Soviet enemy, and then promptly forgot about Afghanistan and its people until 9/11. Who created and funded the muj, who later became Taliban? Hmm?

On the other hand, I do have to question the conspiracy theories posted here. The comic book came out in 1998, and from what I have seen posted on the internet, the depictions in the movies are based on the comic book. So if there are errors of depiction, they date back to the book, which predates Dubya's presidency by a safe margin.

Sometimes, coincidences happen.

The West sees the rise of Islamic fundamentalism and its violent manifestations as a threat - quite correctly. The West, correctly, is revolted by suicide bombing of civilians, sawing heads off schoolgirls, and blowing up your neighbours because of arcane theological disputes (Sunni vs. Shia). These are savage, atavistic acts that have left the Islamic world's image in tatters, all the worse because dissenting voices are rare, and when we do hear them, they are denouonced and subject to fatwahs and murder (yup, Theo van Gogh springs to mind).

It is not hard to come to see this as a clash of civilizations, as "us" versus "them". That's why bigots just lump everyone in the Middle East together as Arabs, terrorists, whatever. Makes it easier to stomach blowing them up, starving them, keeping them occupied, etc. - they just don't deserve anything else.

That's the sad thing, though, the "us versus them". And about the conspiracy theory, if not that then 300 as a film displays really lousy timing, and serious insensitivity to the current explosive climate. We, the ordinary people, along with the West, detest violence and cringe with embarrassment at the thread-bare rhetoric of fundamentalists. We have seen what it has done to our own country after all. Believe me, I do understand why this stereotyping of us has started, I am saddened by it, and I wish I could reach out to the victims of terrorism. I wish Daniel Pearl or Jill Carrol had never happened, or that something could have been done to stop it. That's why I am here, to speak and say that that is not what most of us are like, that there are others like me. I hope there comes a day when no one has to live in fear of such things happening again. And I am glad to have been part of this discussion and heartened by the fact that there are other people out there who care about bridging the gap instead of widening it.

Rima,

Bravo.

Great post.

I have to believe that most people, unlike their governments, only wish to live a good, peaceful life with friends and family, and have no interest in harming/dominating/exploiting other people. Sadly, I also fear that these good people tend to be quiet, stay out of politics, and reluctant to put themselves and their loved ones in harm's way when people of ill intent come along.

Out of curiosity, if you are comfortable, do you mind telling me where in the world you are?

Thank you very much and sure, I don't mind. I'm right here in THE IRI, Iran.

Rima,

Neat.

I love the internet!

Here in Canada, you really have to dig to get information about Iran, something other than fairly uninformative stuff.

While I have no affection for the President (of Iran), I heard rumours that he has been badly misquoted/mistranslated on one specific point. Can you confirm?

He has been quoted as advocating the destruction of Israel. There is a rumour that he has in fact been advocating the removal of the "Zionist" government. There is a huge difference - the former is seen as an exhortation to genocide. The latter is a political stance.

Of course, the standard interpretation in the press here is that he is promoting a new Holocaust. I cannot tell - I don't read Farsi, and have never seen an actual transcript.

Regards,

Jaan

Guys,

It is NOT the responsibility of a filmmaker to "exercise sensitivity". It's their job to make entertainment. To make art. To do what comes naturally to them.

To continue to point fingers at the filmmakers is baffling to me. Are you sure you're not just jealous? Jealous that American culture and movies get all the attention? jealous that no one in their right mind would WANT to go to Iran? That everyone instead wants to come here? I don't get it. Help me understand here.

You haven't once come out and said "Okay, maybe I'm a little biased because I'm Persian and I don't like how my ancestors are portrayed (whoop dee doo I don't give a crap about mine, I'm adopted and havent got a clue what culture I come from)

You've also refused to acknowledge the hard work of the people who worked on the film or that people depend on it for their livelihood. No, it's just "this makes us look bad. We have to stop this."

Your "best and brightest" need to stand up for themselves a lot faster. And as for the "president" of Iran, yuo shouldn't believe a single word that comes out of his mouth. To even dare SUGGEST that the holocaust never happened...borders on a kind of insanity that would make even Jeffrey Dahmer stand back and say "Whoa. That guy's nuts."

American,

Well, I find myself agreeing with much of what you said in your last post.

I think there is a growing backlash against political correctness that re-writes history, especially in popular media. "Sensitivity" is wielded like a weapon: too many films have had mindless controversy associated with them. It's almost impossible to make a film in a historical context without *somebody* getting their knickers in a knot.

I believe in free speech and the marketplace of ideas, so if someone says something I don't agree with, I will dissent by putting my perspective forward. The notion of restricting their ability to present their ideas is repugnant, unless it gets to the point of a criminal act - i.e. directly inciting to violence, etc.

What you take from 300 is your perception, no more. Film makers should not be made to look over their shoulder and ask if their work is agreeable to everyone, or fits in with the Zeitgeist.

Interestingly, there has been debate in North America and Europe about the characters of Leonidas and Xerxes. Some believe that the Spartans represent the US (Bush as Leonidas? LOL!!!!). Other think Xerxes is Bush - finishing off his father's unfinished business, self-involved, invading someone else's country. You pick. My point is that everyone will have their own take.

And I totally agree that Holocaust denial in this day and age can only be ascribed to mental illness, or rabid antisemitism (the same thing really). Unfortunately, this is another area where many groups in the Middle East have a huge PR problem. Questioning whether or not the Holocaust occurred, teaching the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, promoting the idea that Jews were responsible for 9/11 and got "their people" out of the twin towers - all crackpot ideas, reflecting a repugnant racism. That does not mean that there aren't legitimate issues with Israeli occupation, assassinations, destruction of Lebanon, use of cluster weapons against civilian targets etc. etc. - but you have to draw the line at racial slander.

My point about Ahmedinejad (sp?) was that I find it incredible that the guy would be dumb enough to believe what he is supposed to have said, or dumb enough to say it in public. And the press has so often twisted words that I take everything I read with a huge grain of salt.

The problem I and most other "islamophobes" have is just the perception that our freedom to express ourselves is constantly goignt o be challeneged by islamic extremists who threaten our lives and the lives of our families all for nothihng more than some political cartoons, books, or god forbid, a movie. So when I see a topic like this, I say to myself" Oh God. Here they go AGAIN. I have to put a stop to this RIGHT NOW."

I think if anyone in the middle east knew what it meant to really be FREE, they wouldnt issue fatwahs or whatever. They'd realize that freedom is god-given. And no one has the right to take it away. If they wonder why we are jamming people into guantanamo, or bombing extremists on a daily basis, its because we KNOW what it's like to live with freedom. And we will KILL to stop others from taking it away from us. We'll lock you up. We'll do whatever it takes. We just want religo-forigen intersts to STAY OUT OF OUR BUSINESS. ( and i know, here's the part where you say "why dont your troops do the same?" Well here's why I can say that.

I was always agaiunst the Iraq war. RIGHT FROM THE START.

Legofish,

Looked at the art again. Very interesting submissions. A bit curious that most of the submissions look like graphic novel styles. I like the inclusion of traditional elements.

Well done, I hope that you continue to get artwork. It would be nice to see some more traditional styles as well.

BTW to those of you drawing horses, the big war horses you depict weren't developed until the late Middle Ages in Europe. They were bred from draft animals in order to carry the immense weight of fully armoured knights, also a development of that era. Previously warriors fought off small horses that were more like our modern day ponies. Also, stirrups are a fairly recent invention - Romans didn't have 'em, yet many movies make the mistake. Maybe the riders today aren't good enough to ride without them.

As far as I know, warriors in ancient time only had small bits of armour strategically placed (breastplate, helmet, shin armour).

So for all you fans of historical accuracy, put your warriors on ponies, not mighty war horses!

American, in 100 years time the history books will still say that we abolished slavery 2000 years in our realms before you guys were about to start it.

To be honest I dont give a crap about what you say because your savage forefathers were still learning how climb down from trees and set fires when my forefathers were creating the first global human rights document - the Cyrus Cylinder. And nothing can change that, not you, not these idiots your interference in our country help cause to get a foothold and rule our country, nothing. In 100 years Iran will still be around, just like it has for the last 3 millenia, China will be ruling the world and your country will be yesterdays news, just like today's United Kingdom.

And whats with the islam/veil/whatever jibes.
no one gives a shit.

We're Iranians/Persians not arabs or mooslims or whatever you care to stereotype us as.

Go back to school

Yikes. I see "American" has found his counterpart in "Strangey." I also see that it didn't take long for someone use the words "Nazi" and "fascist." Sigh. Under most rules of Internet debate, all useful interaction ends as soon as someone does that. Nevertheless, I will make a comment or two.

Rima, most Americans are quite well aware of where to find Iran on a map. They may not know the name of the president of that country, and they certainly don't know the name "Mossadeq." Or even "Sykes" and "Picot." I find that rather distressing, myself. But then, the only reason they may know the name "Allende," is because the niece of the former president of Chile is a best-selling author, here. General ignorance of the history of nations outside the U.S. and Europe is pretty widespread.

That's because the vast majority of Americans concern themselves exclusively with day to day activities that affect them directly. One of the finest things we can say about the United States is that almost everyone here can pass their days in so much peace and prosperity that they have to go to the movies just so they can talk about *something* exciting at work the next day.

We don't know much about history because, really, most of us feel it doesn't affect us. Most Americans focus on work, so they can afford a home, so they can raise their children as they choose, and eventually earn a peaceful retirement. The rest of the world seems very far away, and filled with an unusually large number of people who behave incomprehensibly.

However, that does *not* mean they believe anything they see in movies. Quite the contrary. Most movies are *fiction* and people know it.

(Except for those clearly labeled "documentaries," which Americans find boring and depressing, and generally don't bother to see.)

As for not being able to recognize an Iranian on the street, or even when told his or her name, that's probably true. We have a number of immigrants and ethnic groups, here, and most don't bother to keep track.

Frankly, most Americans don't care where people come from. As long as people work hard, and don't interfere with how others live, most here believe in "live-and-let-live." You mind your business, they mind theirs, and you do business together if it suits you.

If you get to know someone of a different ethnic heritage in the office or the ballpark, and become friends, that's a fine thing. It happens frequently. While some areas of the country have people who struggle with latent racism, the majority of us have little patience with such attitudes. The only real current resentment gets directed toward the population of illegal immigrants, as I previously noted.

I know there are those who have said that "300" is somehow a propaganda piece put out by Hollywood at the direction of the U.S. government. That's an understandable viewpoint, if one lives in a country where the government controls the media. I don't know what I can say to that, other than, "You're not from around here."

However, I can offer an example that demonstrates the silliness of that belief. May I direct you to a movie released less than a month after "300," and shown in the same theaters? The film, "Shooter," starring Mark Wahlberg, just started Friday. It references history about as much as "300" did (which is to say, some), and talks about events for which there is much greater documentation.

It's in the action-adventure genre, just as "300," but it's a "shoot-'em-up," not a "swords-and-sandals" film. However, despite the historical references, it has the same purpose - entertainment created to make money.

You may find the comments about current events, and the portrayal of U.S. government authorities, more amenable than the presentation of Xerxes. However, each is about equally accurate, and Americans will give them about the same credibility -- which is to say, "not much." :)

You know, it's funny. I occasionally hear the same rhetoric about China from various people...often foreigners who don't like American policy. And it tends to have a kind of "wishful thinking" to it. As if they WANT to see China take over the world.

Well ok, sure! Let them!

And then you'll BEG for America to be "top dog" again. I almost wish they would become the new target of the rest of the world's ire. Would take the pressure off the U.S. for a change.

Oh, and by the way "Strangey" your argument against my ancestors is moot. I'm adopted, and have no clue who my ancestors were. So you're making a cheap shot with no reference.

Oh, you're not "muslims" per se. Sure. I understand. i guess that's why the mullahs control everything and force all irania-er..."persian" women to cover themselves.

Yes. I can see just how wrong I am :}

Oh, and just one more thing...

America=Freedom of speech
Right to bear arms
Taking in waves of human refugees who fled their so-called "great homeland" because of oppression there.

China=Suppresion of free speech
Government tells them how many children they can have...
Bird Flu & SARS ( lol )
People fleeing China in droves to go anywhere with more freedom.

Think about that before you "wish" to see China running everything.

American, your comments are irrelevant. No one has brought up China, here, except for you. And, they never claimed they weren't Muslim, they said they weren't *Arabic.*

Islam is a *religion*, and its proponents are called Muslims. As a universal religion, it attracts adherents of all sorts. Arabs and Persians (Iranians) are different *ethnic groups* who are mostly Muslims of one sort or another. "Arabic" does not necessarily equal "Muslim," any more than "White Anglo-Saxon" necessarily equals "Protestant Christian."

Pay attention, and respond, to what people actually write. Otherwise, you just argue with yourself and contribute nothing useful.

You f***ing persian sand monkey homicide bombing scumbag right handed asswiper non pork eating malcontent. Come say that to my face and I'll hurl you into Guantanamo with the rest of your arab/muslim/whatever brothers.

Persia sucks. The arab world sucks. It's backwards and perpetually stuck in the dark ages. 300 rules. You got your asses beat by a handful of men. NO ONE cares about your culture. And one day, when all the oil runs out and we're driving cars fueled by AMERICAN corn oil or hydrogen, the whole of the middle east will be irrelevant to the world. All you have is sand, religion, and strife. Hopefully this whole kidnapping of british soldiers will be just the excuse American and britian need to nuke "Persia" into oblivion.

You were NEVER a civilized country. And you never will be.

We have food. Land. Water. Prosperity. Everything the muslim idea of "heaven" seems to portray. No owonder you hate america so much. We have what you could never have.

DISSED! Peace out lol

Dude I love pork, you can get it for cheap in the Armani shops in Tehran.

Or you can a couple of Persian sausages - calvAss - stuck up your ass as well.

You see, whats the point of even talking to you when you are talking about the arab world and muslim - wtf has that got to do with Persia you dumb American shit?

its like calling us japanese or chinese.

We're Persian, you are filth.

And one final clue - you will NEVER find a country on this green earth - including israel - who actually LOVES America more than Iran does. Saying stuff like "no wonder you hate america so much" confirms you are just some real dumb redneck and have never met an iranian in your life.

Go to iran and see how much your average iranian talks about america.

Actually go to iran? I doubt a stupid thick POS like you has ever left your country, or even city

DISSED? you couldnt diss a statue you ignorant arsewipe

1000 nations of the persian empire descend upon YOU.

American, you know JACK SHIT about iran or its history.

So actually go and read some books before you make an absolute fool of yourself.

Learn about the great persian contributions from the wine you drink to the medicine used to heal you to the mapping of the stars above you

Hey maybe you're just jealous - jealous that iranian immigrants to your country are earning on average 140,000$ according to the MIT survey last year, whereas you are probably on minimum wage.

Sorry pal, but losers just gotta accept to be losers.

American, what a shame. From your March 21 comment, it seemed that you had decided to join the debate and make reasoned arguments instead of spewing anger and hate. I was looking forward to continuing the discussion with you. Now you're back to square one. Apparently you found your match in Strangey. Don't blame Ahmadinejad for calling for the destruction of Israel, from what you say, you're the same as him: "Yeah, I hope they nuke Persia!" You can say all the swear-words and insults, it will not make Iran's (or any other country's) history and civilization any lesser than it was and is. To "kill for freedom"? That sounds very paradoxical. Sounds like the same kind of rhetoric by Palestinian suicide bombers, the ones you call terrorists. At least they themselves are willing to die for it too.

Contrary to what you believe, quite a lot of people in their right minds do travel to Iran, because they see past the silly propaganda and hype and come to discover the rich history, ancient culture, art, and handicrafts. You should try it sometime. Perhaps it will help you see that all is as not as black and white as you think. It's no paradise, but it's quite habitable.

No, believe it or not, we're not jealous. We have our own cinema, (with films like Taste of Cherries, Baran, and The White Baloon), which, although not your average over-CGIed Hollywood flick, can hold their own quite well in Cannes and other international film festivals.

"Okay, maybe I'm a little biased because I'm Persian" is all anyone ever said here in this forum, you were the one who started all the mud-slinging.

Come to think of it, many other religions, such as Judaism, have their own weird, quirky laws ("can't eat ham", for example) that other people find hard to fathom, but I don't see you poking fun at them or attacking them.

If you're "clueless" as to who your ancestors were or if you don't care, good for you. But the point is that all people have values that they hold dear, what those values are is another matter. Mutual respect is after all one of the basic tenets of democracy, if I remember rightly.

But the whole problem with your concept of freedom and the US's so-called fight for democracy is that it's selective. Many other Arab countries (and US allies) such as Saudi Arabia rank far worse than Iran in terms of human and women's rights. In Iran at least, women can be vice president, get elected to parliament, and compose more than half of all university students. That's a far cry from Saudi Arabia where they are not allowed to drive and don't even have the right to vote. But you don't see America rushing to rescue Saudi Arabian women. Of course, there's a simple answer to that, an "Oily" one.

I am no great lover of the Iranian president, but suggesting that Jeffrey Dahmer is saner than him is taking it too far. It was Jeffrey Dahmer who murdered 17 men, chopped them up, refrigerated and ate them, not Ahmadinejad.

Jaan, I'm not eager in any way to defend the Iranian president, but in all fairness, what he said is arguably ambiguous, and can also be said to mean the Zionist regime must be wiped out or ousted, instead of the state of Israel. It's open to debate. You must understand that he is seen more of a figure of ridicule in Iran (and probably the rest of the world), most of what he says is not taken seriously by ordinary Iranians. Thomas summed it all up, more or less.

But guys, you are right. We Iranians HAVE become hypersensitive and thin-skinned. This forum has helped me figure out why. The answer, very simply, is that we're darn tired of being picked on. Anything that goes wrong in the world, everyone screams and points to Iran. It can get under your skin after a while. Remember the movie Alexander? It was also something along the same lines as 300, and it actually claimed to be based on real historical facts instead of a lousy comic book, with the same tired Iranians-looking-like-Arabs stereotypes, among other things. It caused nowhere near such an outcry as 300. When all is said and done, we are just sick of the whole caboodle.

Strangey, please, don't follow in American's footsteps. Let him be angry and put forth all the ugly racist slurs he wants. It speaks volumes for the democracy he so claims to defend and "the real freedom" that he apparently knows the meaning of. American, those EXTREMISTS that constantly issue fatwahs and challenge your freedom are not of us. It is also OUR freedoms that they undermine. They are self-appointed (and unwanted) "defenders of the faith" and we want as much to do with them as the rest of the world does.

Thomas, when I said most people don't know where Iran is, I did not mean only Americans, although that is true of quite a few Americans that I or my friends chatted with online. They confused it either with India or Iraq. I was making a reference to the general world population, a lot of people in a lot of countries. (Speaking from experience, from what I've seen in my travels.) Perhaps that unawareness is less nowadays, with all the unwanted nuclear spotlight.

Okay. You want a civilized discussion? You got it. but that doesn't mean any of my following statements aren't relevant.

Now, I am sorry about what I wrote. But I was pissed off. You're tired of "looking bad" Well, we are tired of you guys making us out to be "Zionists" and "Infidels"

Now, you make it sound like all Americans WANT or desire is to shell out our hard earned money on Arab oil.

We don't. Unfortunatly that's the way the world "works" Cars run on oil. For now anyway. It pollutes the air and drains 90% of our incomes.

Ask any (non-arab) American. They'd tell you if they had a choice, they wouldn't soil their fuel tanks with arab oil. All I ever hear is "The greedy Americans want all our precious oil"

Feh. You WISH.

Every time I fill my car up I feel sick to my motherf***ing stomach. Because I know our cash is funding extremism and corrupt governments all over the middle east.

Oh. And don't make me laugh. Just let a woman walk around the streets of Tehran in a short sleeve shrt and see how long it takes the virtue police to throw her in jail or stone her, or whatever. You cannot POSSIBLY convince me women have anything CLOSE to the amount of freedom westerm women do.

The Irianian "president" has been proven to be one of the American embassy hostage takers. He's been identified. He's also called for a "world without America" and the complete destruction of Israel.

ZIONIST? Oh, you mean ousting a democratic government and replacing it with a government that will satisy muslims ( or middle easterners in general ) the world over? Hmmm? Sorry, the Z word is just another word for "intolerance on the part of muslims who can't stand to see non-muslims defending themselves"

Also, i think you underestimate just how horrible 9/11 made any middle easterners look. Because of that, WE...CAN'T...TRUST...ANY OF YOU. I didn't care before. After that, now when I see a middle eastern person, I...get...SUSPICIOUS.

I can't help it. And you know what? It makes me ANGRIER that I have to waste my energy doing that. And, that I feel like a racist. Because I do. But I can't help it. You may not believe it, but I DON'T LIKE coming here and saying these things. I'm more frustrated that you of middle eastern descent just can't accept or deal with your own inadequacies. you'll use money to fund suicide bombers, but not to buy refugees food? Taking out some Israeli soldiers is more important to you. you can't let go of age-old rivalries. You can't even stand other muslims ( Sunni. shiite anyone?

*pant, pant*

I'm sorry, I MUST disagree with your claim that Iranians love America. You must be out of your mind to be so naive.

If they loved America, why dont they paint over the thousands of anti-american murals painted all over Tehran's buildings? Why DID they take americans hostage? Hmm? Why is all we EVER hear coming out of that region virulently anti-american?

Food for thought.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/1/10/Down_with_usa_mural.jpg/180px-Down_with_usa_mural.jpg
http://www.sfgate.com/blogs/images/sfgate/worldviews/2006/05/10/IRPIX1.jpg

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/42127000/jpg/_42127548_flagburning203ap.jpg

One other thing. Americans NEVER...EVER spill into the streets to burn the flag of another nation. NEVER.

If you disagree with the policy of the American government, burn THEIR FLAG. The GOVERNMENT flag. Don't burn the COUNTRY's flag. This one!

http://hometown.aol.com/patissleepingnow/images/dc%20flag.jpg

I'll take issue with this comment:

"It speaks volumes for the democracy he so claims to defend and 'the real freedom' that he apparently knows the meaning of."

In a democracy, people are allowed to speak their minds publicly, no matter how hateful the thoughts they express. The person who calls himself "American" does not represent the attitude of the majority of Americans. Yes, some distrust exists, and even a modicum of genuine bigotry, here and there. Still, most of us understand that the majority of Muslims have no blame for actions taken by lunatics.

In the United States, we frequently refer to Evelyn Beatrice Hall's famous quote, "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it," (That's been incorrectly attributed to Voltaire. She wrote it to illustrate the philosopher's view of things.)

"The greatest benefit of freedom of speech is that it makes it easier to spot the idiots," is another popular aphorism in the United States.

"American" has the right to say what he thinks, but please do not think he represents the views of anybody but himself. Also, the fact that the United States has such people doesn't really speak ill of our society. If that were true, we would have to condemn all societies, because each has its share.

The use of vulgarity speaks poorly of both "American" and "Strangey." However, the fact that "American" feels free to say it does, in fact, speak well of our democracy.

Okay. At least we're making progress.
American, you keep confusing the two. I AM NOT DEFENDING Ahmadinejad. Jaan asked me a question, I answered it.
I never said women have the same degree of freedom as in the West, I said they are far better off than in a lot of Arab countries and US allies. If you are so unhappy about using the oil, stop using it. No other choice? Same for us in a lot of ways. THAT is what I am trying to make you see. We are bound by a lot of factors that we cannot control. Each in a different way.
I am actually living in Iran, therefore I am more entitled than you to speak about the general opinion. It would be a good idea for you to see Iran, you'd see for yourself that nobody here hates America. It is you who wants to be caught up in this image of war-mongering, vitriolic, dangerous Arabs and Middle-Easterners, because you want to continue to hate the middle east.

As to my inadquacies, get over it already. It is also naive of you to think that people here want to spend their hard earned money on a bunch of faceless Jihadists.They don't. They, like everybody else, have bills to pay, kids to put through college, deadlines to meet, etc. With the sort of annual income here, it doesn't leave room to fund suicide bombings, even if people wanted to, which they don't. Your government is using American tax-payer money to fund the Iraq invasion, which apparently a lot of Americans are against. The situation is the same here, whether you believe it or not.

I understand that 9/11 was a terrible blow to both sides, and I sympathize with you. But you have to stop blaming it on me or the rest of the people in this region.

I appreciate the meaning freedom a lot more than you do; you take it for granted, but over here, people are struggling and fighting for it, and appreciate its value all the more.

You have to accept that not all of what the US does is neccessarilly right or moral. It isn't. A lot of what it does is morally questionable, but you keep defending it. I am making no excuse for the Iranian government or defending it, because I know that it is corrupt, and neither am I bunching up the US government's actions with its people, because it is clear to me that the two are not synonymous. If you also learn to see that about the Middle East, then this discussion has served its purpose.

Anyway, so far, so good. Take a deep breath, set aside your prejudices, and chill out. After all, we are all trying to live our lives.

PS, Thomas, I understand the basic principles of democracy, my point is that you cannot defend it with belligerence and violent language. It goes against the concept. Like "killing for freedom", it negates the meaning of freedom. American and Strangey are, I suppose, mirrors of each other on opposite sides. But people like you and Jaan make this whole debate worthwhile. Thank you for your in depth remarks. It has also helped me see a few things.

Also on another note, my American friend. Nobody said your arguments were not relevant. Your insults and racist slurs make them as such. Learn to make informed comments without insulting people and getting all worked up, and your comments will be even more relevant, and you will actually get your point across. That is what debating is about. People trying to introduce to each other their different standpoints. As the saying goes, 'don't judge an Indian (or an Iranian, for that matter) till you've walked in his moccasins.'

Rima,

It may be a lost cause.

The art of debate and civil discourse is gradually disappearing. It is commonplace now to trash talk your adversary when you run out of arguments/facts/reason, and think that you somehow win. Sadly, these folks are too dense to understand that they just make fools of themselves.

Nice to have folks like you that *do* have a point to make, and are willing to have a genuine debate.

I'm still here. And I don't intend to resort to any more name calling.

I will, however continue to assert that when you guys go out and protest art of any kind ( cinema, political cartoons, books ) it is a detriment to your cause. Because it makes people nervous, that you're going to issue a fatwah, or death threats, or stick a bomb under someone's car.

Don't forget, in ANY civilized nation, when a group of people want to violently change things, they go after people most likely to raise a fuss. And more than likely, it trends toward artists, or intellectuals, or forward thinking progressives.

So like I said, if you keep doing this you're just making yourself look bad. Why not promote iranian culture WITHOUT trying to sabotage American culture?

See? Civilized!

You should also know some facts. When people complain Anericans never get to see the point of view of the rest of the world, they must realize it goes both ways.

I can't tell you how many radio stations in my country ( yes, the United States, yeesh ) have covered this. Not so much YOU, or this site, though it has occasionally been mentioned ) but more of the broader "People in Iran are pissed at this movie"

And, nearly every caller who phoned in to the radio shows to venture an opinion said the same thing. Such as...

"Good. I'm glad those towelheads are pissed."
"Good. They deserve it."
"Good. I'm glad they're upset. That's what they get for taking all our people hostage in the late 70's and never apologizing for it."
"Good. I plan to see the movie a hundred times"

Which is another reason you ought to just let this go. Christians never learn. Anytime there's a movie that ruffles their feathers, they raise a fuss. And all it does is make more people want to see it. It RAISES their box office.

So...bear in mind there are people here...who have LONG memories. Who won't EVER let go of old wounds. And protests like this one just exacerbate it.

My two....no...ten cents.

Another PR disaster for Iran! The world now sees another sad spectacle - 15 "hostages" taken by the Iranian government, outside Iranian waters (does the word "piracy" ring a bell?). Daily video clips and "confessions". Quite disgusting.

Iran is really pushing the world (yes, the world, not just the US) to view it as a rogue state, outside the norms of normal international behaviour. With refusal to play by international nuclear rules already on the list of offences, and some pretty credible evidence of supplying weapons to Iraqi insurgents to blow up US troops, I almost wonder if these are not deliberate attempts to goad the US into another blunder - by attacking Iran. I also have to muse about Ahmedinejad's apocalyptic visions, and his desire for chaos in order to hasten the coming of the (12th?) Imam.......

I am sure that most Iranians are at least concerned by the brinksmanship being played by their government - do they realize how dangerous all this is? It seems that the Sunni world is awakening and starting to flex its muscles - see what the Saudis are up to. Iran is being viewed as a threat by the Arab world, and I am not sure how long it will be before something erupts.

Just curious about what the "man in the street" says in Iran? Comments?

The link to this thread? I don't think too many folks are forming their opinions of Iran/Persia from 300 these days - everybody is watching the news.

I'm sort of happy that the comments for this post have turned into a vibrant discussion, and at the same time I don't want this place to turn into a political forum, there are many places more suitable for that.

I'm just going to say that I hope that readers like Jaan can understand the frustration of me and many other Iranians like me. We have to fight many battles: not only do we have to fight the negative media propaganda we face in the west, but also we have to deal with episodes like this latest event from our own government. There's a considerable number of Persians who not only aren't cheering about this but are also quite embarassed by it. I think that's why there hasn't been much talk about it in the Persian blogosphere as well, there's a sense of quiet embarassment.

It's really tough when the actions of your own authorities directly negate all your efforts for showing a more human side of Iran and its people.

On that note, I hope we can leave the political discussion for a more suitable platform and focus on what the purpose of this blog and Project 300 is: promoting and displaying Persian arts and artists. You can check out the new Project 300 weblog here:

http://300themovie.info

I no longer come here to talk about 300. For me, that problem is solved. I see your point and those of others. It’s a stupid movie, based on a comic book, and it hardly matters anymore. I come here to discuss the broader issue.

Bear with me and let me tell you a little story.
In 1980, Saddam Hussein, backed by the United States, launched a military offensive against a nation that was still dazed and reeling from a violent upheaval - the sudden seizure of power by the theocracy in Iran.

It started over a historical dispute over their respective national borders, and Iraq gave no official warning of its attack. The war lasted eight years, and in the process, close to a million lives were lost, vast resources destroyed, and the economies of two countries suffered immeasurable losses.

Have you ever heard sirens going off in the night, warning of a pending air strike, and watched your parents’ terrified faces as they pull you and your siblings out of bed and take you to safety? Or ever seen missiles lighting up the skyline like some terrible, deadly comet, all the while praying that it will not hit your home or those of your loved ones, but knowing that, if not you, it shall be someone else’s? Have you ever come back from hiding out in the outskirts of the city to find the glass shattered in your home by shrapnel from a rocket that hit a children’s hospital two blocks away? I seriously doubt it.

That is my personal account. I can give you countless others of those who lost their entire families, parents who lost their children, their homes, their livelihoods. The irony of it is, I and those of my generation who survived the war are the lucky ones.

Additionally, in 1988, just months before the war ended, using the flimsy excuse that it had mistaken it for an F-14 Tomcat, the USS Vincennes shot down Iran Air flight 655, a civilian carrier, killing all 290 passengers aboard. William J. Crowe, then chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, would later admit that the Vincennes was inside Iranian waters when it fired at the aircraft. The US government never apologized for this incident, and awarded the crew of the Vincennes with combat action ribbons, one for “quickly and precisely completing the firing procedure." To add insult to injury, it paid EX GRATIA compensation to the families of the victims. If you’re still sore about the US embassy hostage crisis, know that your government more than made up for it. At least, the American hostages were able to return to their families alive in the end.

So don’t give me that line about “FAR LESSER of two evils”. Only one who does not know about the reality and true horrors of war can dismiss the loss of hundreds of thousands of lives so easily. The above statement rings especially hollow in light of the fact that the US government finally decided it had to invade Iraq on the pretext of its possession of weapons of mass destruction, which turned out to be nonexistent.

9/11 was one day. It was a terrible tragedy and has left its mark on the American psyche. May it – and others like it – never happen again. The war between Iraq and Iran lasted for eight years, and its aftermath is being felt to this day.

We hated Saddam Hussein, a ruthless, psychopathically merciless man who, when wiping out dissidents, wiped out their entire clans with them, and as Halabja showed, had no mercy even for his own people. Still, I am not glad that he was executed, for I believe that revenge only prolongs the vicious cycle of hatred.

The Iraqi people? No, we do not hate them. They, like us, were caught in the middle.

We resent the American government for its unjust support of a clear aggressor, and for the way it has screwed us over repeatedly over the years. Despite all this, and despite having every reason to (for in emotional matters, lines get blurred) most Iranians feel no ill-will or grudge towards the American people. Many of us were educated there, and have friends and family in the United States. Take that as it is, or leave it.

But the next time you’re troubled by seeing your flag burned, remember that it didn’t start because the Iranian government (or even the crackpot anti-American zealots) didn’t like the colours on it. Indeed, if that is the case, we have long memories too. If we are to raise all our past wrongs, then we shall only be going in circles.

Also, you seem to equate those “towel heads” with the rest of us. They are the minority, but too bad for us, since they happen to be the ruling minority.

legofish jan,
sorry about this. the truth is your project has initiated a very vibrant discussion, as you say, and i for one feel that a lot of things need to be said, and it would be a shame to let it go now, just when those of us here are actually getting our messages across. a project about iran WILL inevitably become political. but we shall try and take our debate elsewhere if it can be done. though you seem uncomfortable with where this has ended up, i can't help but thank you for making it possible.

and Jaan, what to say? What can I say? For that appears to be the exact plan. To provoke the US into attacking us, and plunge Iran into complete chaos. In a dictatorship, it is only by crisis that you can justify your rule.

You should remember that the shooting down of that iranian airliner was an accident. But the US hostage crisis was a direct and INTENTIONAL

I'm sure it seems the other way around to Iranians. "Those cruel infidel war-mongering Americans shot down our peaceful airliner." Everyone will be biased towards their side of the story.

The point is, whether these incidents were done on purpose, ( well the hostage taking most certainly WAS intentional, but that's not my point)

Both sides use small incidents to rile up their own people, to turn them against other nations. They EXPLOIT the hardships, say, if the economy is bad, or if there's an outbreak of sickness, or whatever, it's all those damn foriegners fault.

Now, I hear ultra right wingers say this stuff all the time. They are just....ITCHING...ITCHING for a fight. But they aren't as DUMB or ignorant as you might think. They've even gone so far to admit that" If we get into a war with Iran, we'll definetly win, but it most certainly will not be an easy fight."

This kind of talk is scary.

But it doesn't help one bit that the Iranian people don't stand up to their "leaders". An Iranian woman called a talk show the other day, sayin g that "most Irianians are waiting for America to come free them" which I didn't believe for a second, but there was a consensus that Iraninas CAN'T stand up to their government. They have no weapons or support to do so.

So...sad to say, we maybe heading down a pre-determined path. One can only hope IF that happens, there as few casualties as possible.

The United States will not invade Iran. The American people have no stomach for any more military adventures. In fact, most Republicans would vote against such a proposal, because it would cost them their offices, next election. You may get an air strike out of it, but that's about it. (That's bad enough, though.)

Ahmadinejad knows this, as well. So, he has the chance to engage in some political grandstanding, at very low risk. It distracts attention from Iranian suppliers of weapons and explosives to Shi'ite militias in Iraq, and gives him leverage to negotiate a trade for Iranians recently taken captive in Iraq. He may possibly even wrangle additional concessions out of it (though that's unlikely).

Moreover, since any possible repercussions will come in the form of economic sanctions, he has a chance to strengthen support for his government. He can paint the Western powers as villains whose economic sanctions undermine the prosperity of Iran. Therefore, any hardship the Iranian people suffer will be *our* fault, and not his.

I think that's the most likely scenario. Just because Ahmadinejad is a tyrant doesn't mean he's a fool. At least, not in anything but the most general sense that applies to anyone who considers tyranny a viable form of government.

The United States will not invade Iran. The American people have no stomach for any more military adventures. In fact, most Republicans would vote against such a proposal, because it would cost them their offices, next election. You may get an air strike out of it, but that's about it. (That's bad enough, though.)

Ahmadinejad knows this, as well. So, he has the chance to engage in some political grandstanding, at very low risk. It distracts attention from Iranian suppliers of weapons and explosives to Shi'ite militias in Iraq, and gives him leverage to negotiate a trade for Iranians recently taken captive in Iraq. He may possibly even wrangle additional concessions out of it (though that's unlikely).

Moreover, since any possible repercussions will come in the form of economic sanctions, he has a chance to strengthen support for his government. He can paint the Western powers as villains whose economic sanctions undermine the prosperity of Iran. Therefore, any hardship the Iranian people suffer will be *our* fault, and not his.

I think that's the most likely scenario. Just because Ahmadinejad is a tyrant doesn't mean he's a fool. At least, not in anything but the most general sense that applies to anyone who considers tyranny a viable form of government.

If the Iran Air incident was an accident, why were the ship's crew awarded with combat ribbons? Shouldn't they have been reprimanded for such gross oversight? The Vincennes was within Iranian territorial waters at the time of the shoot down. Even if it was a mistake, it had no right to fire, especially since the plane, having been warned of the danger it was in by another ship, the USS Sides, had already changed course away from the Vincennes. To believe that it was all just a mistake is very difficult in view of the circumstances around it. It was not just a "trivial" incident. But anyway, enough said on that.

The truth is that Iranians are now too weary of standing up. They've been through a revolution, a war, and are fighting a battle both inside Iran and outside of it. Yes, because they are scared. They are scared for themselves, their families, their futures. They stood up to their government once, and look where it got them. There are still incidents of riots, demonstrations and rallies, which are swiftly and violently suppressed. Iran's salvation will not come through uprising, revolution, military invasion, or any other form of violent change. It has to come from within, a gradual, slow, but hopefully sure change towards civil society. God help us if there should ever be a war, because, it is doubtful that the US will win (as it has not won in Iraq) and it will be a human catastrophe for both sides. There is something you should know about Iranians. They may hate their rulers, they may feel no ill will towards the invading American soldier they may have to fight, but they will defend their country to the death.

...But finally, at least thank God that the British sailors were freed. For now, that is. Who knows what the next week, next day, or even the next hour will bring.